Nativity Rant

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[FnG] Hanno
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Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] Hanno » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:36 pm

I have refused to go to my daughters nativity on the grounds that having a psychotic father in the audience would
be worse than having no father. People look at me blankly when I try to express how angry the nativity play/religious carols/religious
songs make me when my childs school is not a faith school.

To tell the truth I could put up with the nativity if it wasnt for the other stuff if it was actually put forward
as a myth/fairy story or if it didnt try to say Jesus was son of God etc. I find it totally immoral to have
5 - 8 year olds singing religious songs which are on the lines of 'praise him praise him' without giving the children choice.

Also its pretty hypocritical when they tell you oh its just tradition etc - but in the next lesson they are teaching children
facts in songs eg the alphabet.

Ive talked to this with the teacher - and they said "oh your one of them." She thought I Jehovas Witness - actually im just
an atheist who doesnt want the same brain washing my wife/I had when we were little put on our child. The only answer the
school gave was to have her excluded from singing - which is unfair as its one thing she really enjoys. This is a community school
not a faith school it should be inclusive not exclusive!

This weekend they sent home Carol sheets to learn to sing at old folks homes - Now if they were singing Merry Christmas
or some of the more 'bland' non religious stuff I would again be okay with it, but instead they pick the heavy son of god ones.
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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] Hanno » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:49 pm

so it seems my only choice for next year is to write a secular nativity along the following lines.

*Scene - Joseph with Mary on Donkey*

"Aye up Mary, thon donkeys looking a bit tired - are you putting on weight?"
"I'm pregnant dear"
"Wha'tha on about - yo usaid we were waiting for a blessing"
"It was God"
"God put you up the spout - what are you trying to pull ? it was tha's weasley crosseyed green grocer
I never trusted the greasy little bugger"
"No really Joseph - God came to me in dream and told me I was to have his child"
"We'll see about this..>>"
****
*Scene - a stable in Bethlehem"

"Best room in the inn, that fella said. My right foot it's smelly in here and theres something moving in that corner" -J
"Their goats Joseph. Anyway I think its a lovery sort of quaint room - and its even got a cot for the baby" -M
"That's horse food you daft ninny. Hold on theres someone at the door" -J
Innkeeper - "would you mind sharing you room with these fine fellows?"
"No we paid for this fair and square" - J
First king - "We can pay gold ..."
Second Wiseman "Frankensense..."
Third Magi " or Mruuyyy , meerr, muurr emmm"
"Hold are you Wisemen, Kings or Magi ?" - J
First King - " Magi"
Second Wiseman "Kings"
Thrd Magi "Wiseman"
"are you sure? we'll take the gold anyway!" J

*****
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Hanno's Law:
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Anyone who believes they know what's going on is dangerous and should be avoided at all cost.

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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] Hanno » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:53 pm

*scene same stable a little later*

Knock on the door

Innkeeper "Room for any more?"
Shepherds "We got lamb kebabs if youve got space"
"Only if your've brought drinks as well" - J

a little later

"So what are you shepherds and 300 sheep doing here?" - J
"We're lost" - 1st shepherd
"We were following a star" - 2nd shepherd
"Seemed like a good idea at the time" - 3rd shepherd
"baaaaaaaaa baaa " sheep


Joseph looks at sheep and at new born baby
"Ive always wonders does s**t stick to wool?"


and so the baby wipe was invented...
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Anyone who believes they know what's going on is dangerous and should be avoided at all cost.

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[FnG] 7uh
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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] 7uh » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:44 pm

:lmao: :xmas:

[FnG] Mez
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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] Mez » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:32 pm

I'm definitely with you on that one - I tried to argue (correctly) that having a tree in your living room was only a very recent addition to Xmas, and I got called a curmudgeon !

So how about suggesting an alternative nativity...like a re-enactment of Monty Python's "Life Of Brian" ?

:thumbup:

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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] Hanno » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:51 pm

Mez wrote:I'm definitely with you on that one - I tried to argue (correctly) that having a tree in your living room was only a very recent addition to Xmas, and I got called a curmudgeon !

So how about suggesting an alternative nativity...like a re-enactment of Monty Python's "Life Of Brian" ?

:thumbup:



Ah we have a lego xmas tree , I dont mind christmas as long as people dont force religion on you ;-)

Lol if nothing else I can train her to shout "Hes not the messiah, hes a very naughty boy" at the top of her voice in the middle of the play!
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Anyone who believes they know what's going on is dangerous and should be avoided at all cost.

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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] Sphinx » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:22 pm

:lmao:

I have to say hanno - that made me laugh!
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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] pyxie.T32 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:40 am

Not a religios person myself, but you can't spell Christmas with out Christ (You can't spell harrassment without 'ass' either but thats one for my lawers to argue)

I am a firm believer that learning about the nativity is as much a history lesson as it is a religious one - by which I dont mean 2009 years ago a hotel missed out on a marketing oportunity. I mean for a very long time our country has been a religious one, a Christian one and as such it is good for children (and adults) to know a little bit about the religion and it's customs that have shaped our lives and the country we inhabit.

Frankly, why learn Jingle bells, it's pretty tuneless, tells no story and is irritating, 'Hark the Herald' on the other hand sounds nice has a story and is much more melodic and rewarding to sing. (If one can sing - I cant)
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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] Hanno » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:00 pm

[FnG] pyxie.T32 wrote:
Frankly, why learn Jingle bells, it's pretty tuneless, tells no story and is irritating, 'Hark the Herald' on the other hand sounds nice has a story and is much more melodic and rewarding to sing. (If one can sing - I cant)


I would mind if its comparative religion, eg these people believe in this, other people believe in that. And I don't mind the nativity story
apart from when it claims things as fact which are unproven?

As to the singing, sad to say listening to my daughter the otherday , who has inherited my singing ability, I finally realised
why they made me MIME silently at school and didnt let me properly! But she enjoys it.
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Anyone who believes they know what's going on is dangerous and should be avoided at all cost.

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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] pyxie.T32 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:41 pm

[FnG] Hanno wrote:
[FnG] pyxie.T32 wrote:
Frankly, why learn Jingle bells, it's pretty tuneless, tells no story and is irritating, 'Hark the Herald' on the other hand sounds nice has a story and is much more melodic and rewarding to sing. (If one can sing - I cant)


I would mind if its comparative religion, eg these people believe in this, other people believe in that. And I don't mind the nativity story
apart from when it claims things as fact which are unproven?

As to the singing, sad to say listening to my daughter the otherday , who has inherited my singing ability, I finally realised
why they made me MIME silently at school and didnt let me properly! But she enjoys it.


Fair point but comparative religion, is a fairly modern view, as recent as a hundred years ago, if in England there was one religion, 99% of people followed it, it was the best religion, yes some people followed strange other Gods, which if asked we are fine with. They are wrong though.
We have come from that view to the idea of people living merrily side by side with different beliefs next to each other very fast indeed. I personally hope that tollerance grows and they can all merge nicely but I doubt it, also the idea of them sticking a post script verse on the end of a old hym(sp?) essentially saying, "here are some views - we as Christians are aware that some of this might seem outlandish, we don't mean to indicate the idea of of a deity controling the stars for the sake of one child, this would cause problems speaking from a celestial perspective, to anyone of other or non relighion, please allow us our quaint outdated ways"
No!

this is stupid, im not religious, I have heard all these theories and I have made my own mind up, if I am bright enough to hear a 400 year old song and establish it might not have 100% application to me, today then so is everyone else. Can you honestly say you would like things like the lords prayer to be changed to "our Lord who might in a non literal way be in Heaven" ? Again I hope not.

As for the singing tallent, my parents wished my school had the forsight to make me mine, would have done our OFSTEAD a whole lot better to be honest.
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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] Hanno » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:06 pm

I see what you mean pixie. I dont want to change the hymms, I just don't want them forced onto a five year old
who can't differenciate between singing a hymm one minute and an educational song the next.
I'd be quite happy if they just picked ones that werent overt in the 'praise him praise him' department.

If people want to sing hymms in churches or there own homes fine. The stupid thing is that I
sing carols/hymms myself sometimes - I even like some of them but nobody likes my singing so I get told to
shut up quickly.

As for comparative religion, I have carefully ended up explaining to my child why
I don't think Jesus was the son of God and who God is and that other people are free to believe
what they like as long as they don't impose it on other people which is what the school is
doing by being stuck in a traditional rut.
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Anyone who says they know what's going on are probably lying.
Anyone who believes they know what's going on is dangerous and should be avoided at all cost.

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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] pyxie.T32 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:36 pm

[FnG] Hanno wrote:good stuff.


Fair point Hanno, I agree that religious songs have their place but I reckon I would take issue with a school that went all gospel and hardline. When it comes to the comparative religion, you are amongs the first from a generation perspective where you could be aethist and have a brother who is bells'n'whistles Catholic, a generation up and that would be conciderably more rare. Schools are always a generation behind, not due to teachers but curriculum. As such, as much as I agree that it is the R.E's department to educatate about religion and choice, for your Daughter at least there is a good chance the best education will be common sense and impartial parentage.

(You didn't accidently send her to a C.O.E school did you?)
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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby The Phantom » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:16 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDZyuSDUh2U
Time to spice this discussion up with a video clip!
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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby Gothelittle Rose » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:55 pm

[FnG] Hanno wrote:I see what you mean pixie. I dont want to change the hymms, I just don't want them forced onto a five year old
who can't differenciate between singing a hymm one minute and an educational song the next.
I'd be quite happy if they just picked ones that werent overt in the 'praise him praise him' department.

If people want to sing hymms in churches or there own homes fine. The stupid thing is that I
sing carols/hymms myself sometimes - I even like some of them but nobody likes my singing so I get told to
shut up quickly.

As for comparative religion, I have carefully ended up explaining to my child why
I don't think Jesus was the son of God and who God is and that other people are free to believe
what they like as long as they don't impose it on other people which is what the school is
doing by being stuck in a traditional rut.


You make a good point, and I could make the same point in reverse. :) In my area, you're a lot more likely to have to deal with a school telling your Christian kid that Jesus doesn't exist and your beliefs are stupid than telling your atheist kid that Jesus really did exist and is the Son of God.

Opposite beliefs, same problem... I wonder if we could find the same solution?

My solution has been homeschooling (that isn't, by the way, the only reason or even the primary reason why I homeschool) and my secondary solution is doing just as you did and carefully explaining why other people are free to believe differently than we do etc. I keep in mind that the way I deal with situations like this will have a great deal to do with the way my son deals with the same situations in adulthood. :)

I love Christmastime, and I wholeheartedly celebrate all the little things, even the non-Christian ones. This is mostly because I love good food, holiday time, and beautiful shiny decorations. I think this year Christmas is quite enough for my son to take in, but starting next year or the year after I'm going to start explaining Hanukkah to him too.
"Who are you, yourself, alone and nameless?" - Tom Bombadil

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[FnG] Hanno
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Re: Nativity Rant

Postby [FnG] Hanno » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:21 pm

Gothelittle Rose wrote:Opposite beliefs, same problem... I wonder if we could find the same solution?


From my point of view keep religion of whatever kind (or atheism) totally seperate from Schooling apart from comparative religion
when they get older and are capable of making their own minds up. Anything apart from comparative religion, and at an age
they can understand is nothing short of brainwashing. And I agree with you this works both ways, I don't want to
brainwash someones children into not believing in God, but I would like all children to be given a chance to make their own
mind up on the subject.


I'm sure the schools could celebrate xmas without making it overtly religious, and then for those who want a more
christian christmas , isn't this what churches are for?

I really like the idea of home schooling as I don't think our school stretches my daughter enough. But work/money issues
mean it just really isn't feasible at the moment :-(
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Hanno's Law:
Anyone who says they know what's going on are probably lying.
Anyone who believes they know what's going on is dangerous and should be avoided at all cost.


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