My own composed theory: The psychological blockade of the...

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Brain?
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Postby Brain? » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:47 pm

I only believe what I see to be real. Logic would state that there is no god.

Meet Colin, he's this lil invisible fairy sitting my shoulder. What do you mean he's not real? Prove it! :-)

I think its up to those making wild claims to prove it, personally.

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[FnG] Nihilist
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Postby [FnG] Nihilist » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:51 pm

Brain? wrote:You don't often see animals killing those of their own species often...sure, animals kill but it is for food, not because they are evil. Ironically, humans have killed each other infinitely more than animals have; often over issues such as religion!


I'll take issue with this quote, because recent naturalist studies have actually unearthed some disturbing trends in chimpanzees, who are often cited as man's nearest relatives.

Chimps are observe to go out in "strike teams" specifically to kill, maim, and even eat members of other chimp communities. They are now known to stalk, steal and kill babies, and gang beat other chimps, actively.

Some scientists are speculating that the human tendancy to kill and destroy may actually be a primal relic which we haven't left behind, a dark side of our own natures which we haven't mastered yet. The evidence, such as it is, is actually fairly compelling. There are many documentaries on channels such as Discovery and Animal Planet as of late covering this subject, and it is one I find fascinating - because what it tells us is that our murderers are not the unhinged lunatics we try to portray them as, but a simple manifestation of a human condition buried in all of us.

Not surprisingly, many people have found this idea repulsive. I feel, however, that it bears consideration given the evidence - and actually recognising that we may have evolutionary relics lurking in our psyche could be the only way we'll ever master them.

Slight tangent there, so sorry for the hijack. ;)

SandRock
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Postby SandRock » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:55 pm

Well if were going this way then I should also add that I think that religions are the cause of todays wars. You could say the third world war is today, with the terrorists. And that war is a religous war. It is the christians against the muslims.


Of course not all muslims but still a whole lot of them.

Beside that,
Yes, you have. You just choose to ignore them.

Simply, the argument goes like this:

God is real.
There is a God, and thus the suggestion that God is psychological novacaine is incorrect.

Both of these scenarios are possible, but tellingly, neither of these stances is provable.


This is not an arguement, its a statement. Arguements can be supported by facts.

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[FnG] Nihilist
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Postby [FnG] Nihilist » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:57 pm

Brain? wrote:I only believe what I see to be real. Logic would state that there is no god.

Meet Colin, he's this lil invisible fairy sitting my shoulder. What do you mean he's not real? Prove it! :-)

I think its up to those making wild claims to prove it, personally.


God is hardly a "wild claim"; Christianity has a historical background stretching back a long time. Furthermore, there are records of documented miracles, although whether you care to look at them or not is another matter.

The key is that absence of proof is not proof of absence. That sort of attitude is only counter-productive - and mostly to the self, since you're already adopting a negative attitude about the subject at hand. Therefore you'll be automatically inclined to argue against any evidence that *is* produced because you've already decided what is real.

The question is simple: do you admit it is possible, however unlikely, that there could be a God?

If the answer is no, then your mind is closed. I don't believe in God, but I can readily admit that it is possible there *is* one. I'm not so arrogant so as to believe my mind encompasses everything there is, and I don't think I'll ever know all the truths of the world.

No matter how much we know, no matter how sure we are, there is ALWAYS the possibility that we're wrong.

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[FnG] [NL]RAZOR!
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Postby [FnG] [NL]RAZOR! » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:00 pm

Well, this is the hard part about any religion where there is a God present. Know one can prove it and I doubt a sane person will be 100% convinced that there is one. That's also the reason why a lot of people don't believe in God anymore. But this is not a big deal because you don't have to believe in god to live a good life.

I would like to add that practicly every religious person has some kind of doubt about their relgion.

And as the goodness of God is concerned. I don't even believe the bible is really that happy and good and morally correct. There are a lot of stories in there that show that the world is and has always been a place of both peace and war.

But in the end the bible is also just written down by humans.


Using logic, it is not possible to explain there is a God. With logic it's also impossible to completely rule out the excistence of a God. Using logic you can only say that it is very likely that there is no God.
believing in God isn't called "being convinced there is a God"

The point is that neither of us can prove his/her right, and I don't think that's neccesary, in the end we're all reasonanble people that just want to live their lives. Believing in God doesn't do anything to me and I don't feel different from anyone else who doesn't believe in God.

So it's not of important to prove God is real or not.

(It's good to be able to talk to you people at this level. I think this is a very grown up way to talk about something this phylosophical and sentitive)
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Brain?
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Postby Brain? » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:01 pm

Hmm, that is certainly interesting, Nihilist. I have heard of larger apes hunting down and eating (!) smaller ones, but I haven't come across this sort of thing before.

Polar bears also have cannibalistic tendencies, I've heard.

Well this may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that humans are any different - we kill eachother all the time, on a mass scale to boot. This implies that Christianity hasn't exactly done much for us in the way of how to behave.

Without religion there would have been no Inquisition, no Holocaust, no Terrorism...now, I know that if there hadn't have been religion, there would have been other issues fueling hatred - race, for instance - because humans naturally have an evil and bloodthirsty side to them; but it's still worth thinking about imo.

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Postby SandRock » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:01 pm

[FnG] Nihilist wrote:
Brain? wrote:You don't often see animals killing those of their own species often...sure, animals kill but it is for food, not because they are evil. Ironically, humans have killed each other infinitely more than animals have; often over issues such as religion!


I'll take issue with this quote, because recent naturalist studies have actually unearthed some disturbing trends in chimpanzees, who are often cited as man's nearest relatives.

Chimps are observe to go out in "strike teams" specifically to kill, maim, and even eat members of other chimp communities. They are now known to stalk, steal and kill babies, and gang beat other chimps, actively.

;)


As you said chimps are very related to humans, so I dont think you can compare them to humans in this way.

However animals do kill others of their own specy, not often no but they still do it. For instance when one tiger comes in the area of another tiger. Then they will fight out whos in charge. MOST Of the time this doesn't lead to the death of another, but it might.

However if you compare this to humans, we just kill.
Its an instinct, you cant go about it. I think every human is capable of killing. I know i am...

What comes to mind is that it could be explained that we have overpopulated the world. We have no room of our own. How often are you really, really alone. Theres always somebody near by. Chimps live in small packs. We live around the globe.

Maybe armageddon wouldnt be so bad, clearing up some humans and putting them back to just a few. Its harsh, but its best.

Maybe we cannot handle our own intellegence.

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Postby [FnG] Nihilist » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:03 pm

SandRock wrote:Well if were going this way then I should also add that I think that religions are the cause of todays wars. You could say the third world war is today, with the terrorists. And that war is a religous war. It is the christians against the muslims.


That is totally incorrect. The current issues with terrorists have nothing to do with religion whatsoever, it comes down to foreign policy and bad decisions. Radical terrorists are not attacking Western countries on the basis that they are Christian (or some people are) they are attacking on the basis that they are retaliating for foreign policies effected by the target countries. There are many Christian countries in Europe which are not the target of radical Islamic terrorist groups, so your statement that it is all about religion is entirely inaccurate.


Of course not all muslims but still a whole lot of them.


Western propaganda rubbish, it is the minority. Most Muslims denounce the actions of the radicals as being totally against the teachings of Islam.

This is not an arguement, its a statement. Arguements can be supported by facts.


Really? Great! :)

Prove to me God doesn't exist. That's the actual implication of your argument.

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Postby [FnG] ParanoiDinHELL » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:05 pm

its probably fairly safe to asume that there are as much christian radicals then that there are muslim ones ...
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SandRock
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Postby SandRock » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:05 pm

Using logic, it is not possible to explain there is a God. With logic it's also impossible to completely rule out the excistence of a God. Using logic you can only say that it is very likely that there is no God.


This is exactly what i tried to point out in my theory. Because we do not know something we try to come up with an explanation. We cant just say "I know its out there, i know its like this, i know that i can't explain it, and ill just have to live with that"

Also, i do not see how with logic it is impossible to rule out the excistence of god. I surely can, its logical to say that what i cannot explain i cannot judge about.

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Postby [FnG] [NL]RAZOR! » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:07 pm

I think it's better to loosen up a little here. Just discuss it on a nicer level.
(Or this is turning into an escalated indifference based on religion that is mentioned here)
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Postby [FnG] Nihilist » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:07 pm

SandRock wrote: As you said chimps are very related to humans, so I dont think you can compare them to humans in this way.


Yes, you can. What it proves is that the aggressive actions of human beings doesn't spring from the effects of civilisation. It is something else, something deeper, something primal. There are many examples of animals killing each other beyond chimps, as you touched on, but chimps are the most pertinant example because of the close nature. Religion isn't necessarily the cause, it is probably the excuse. The fact is the violence is inherent in our nature.

What naturalists are discovering is that there is a dark side to nature which we haven't previously been aware of, and I doubt it stops with chimps.

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Postby SandRock » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:11 pm

That is totally incorrect. The current issues with terrorists have nothing to do with religion whatsoever, it comes down to foreign policy and bad decisions. Radical terrorists are not attacking Western countries on the basis that they are Christian (or some people are) they are attacking on the basis that they are retaliating for foreign policies effected by the target countries. There are many Christian countries in Europe which are not the target of radical Islamic terrorist groups, so your statement that it is all about religion is entirely inaccurate.


Western countries are all christian and we are all influenced by christian believe. Actually, almost all of the western people are 'christians'. Our way of living in the western world is completely influenced by the christian ways.

On the other side, the arabic way of life is completely influenced by the muslims way.

I dont want to discuss about this tough because i know it will lead nowhere. My personal believe is that the arabic world is under evolved as the western world and has to catch up with us. But please do not react on that.

Really? Great! Smile

Prove to me God doesn't exist. That's the actual implication of your argument.


If you really think that then we cannot argue any further. Because what you do is make a statement. I support my arguements. I do not say prove to me that God exsists. I say that God is an explanation to the things we do not know. All i ask you is to give me some examples that contradict that.

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Postby SandRock » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:12 pm

[FnG] Nihilist wrote:
SandRock wrote: As you said chimps are very related to humans, so I dont think you can compare them to humans in this way.


Yes, you can. What it proves is that the aggressive actions of human beings doesn't spring from the effects of civilisation. It is something else, something deeper, something primal. There are many examples of animals killing each other beyond chimps, as you touched on, but chimps are the most pertinant example because of the close nature. Religion isn't necessarily the cause, it is probably the excuse. The fact is the violence is inherent in our nature.

What naturalists are discovering is that there is a dark side to nature which we haven't previously been aware of, and I doubt it stops with chimps.


You must have gotten me wrong because I dont think that the killing comes from civillisation I think its a racial thing. And since Chimps stand very close to our race its hard to call them animals. Cause they are so much the same

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Postby [FnG] [NL]RAZOR! » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:13 pm

SandRock wrote:Also, i do not see how with logic it is impossible to rule out the excistence of god. I surely can, its logical to say that what i cannot explain i cannot judge about.


So you can't also say it's 100% certain, if you can't judge about something it doesn't mean you can take an assumption for granted
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